tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post2203403602701712073..comments2024-03-08T19:47:41.485+11:00Comments on Ascii Dreams: PermadeathAndrew Doullhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-46745180307284012892012-12-18T11:07:08.368+11:002012-12-18T11:07:08.368+11:00What many people (generally those used to savescum...What many people (generally those used to savescum scames) miss about permadeath is that the alternative (usually unlimited restoring of saved games) removes a very central aspect of play. Savescum games tend to be designed with the expectation (and almost no other choice) but to restore to a saved game position when defeated, meaning that defeat never happens unless the player stops playing, and (in most such games) that playing when having died is playing in a game situation that is as if you were never defeated. In most savescum games, death means nothing except a waste of time and a need to replay events from the last save point. In many cases too, death and defeat are about the same thing, and so the story can practically never have you actually be defeated (except generally the player does die repeatedly, but ignores and savescums). It's possible to have games that offer even more interesting permadeath than Rogue, where not only can you meet the ghost of your and other players' dead characters, but the game world state remains, and you take over some other character from that point. That is the kind of game that I like to play, and to make.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-36272647927709951222011-04-21T02:41:14.711+10:002011-04-21T02:41:14.711+10:00Really interesting read.
I guess what burns me a...Really interesting read. <br /><br />I guess what burns me about permadeath is that I wish it was a option. I always enjoyed exploring the dungeons in Iter Vehemens ad Necem - but permadeath sort of ruined it for me. <br /><br />Having the start from the beginning is really, really, <i>really</i> boring to me. Let the casual gamer roam, and the hardcore voluntarily suffer. :)practicalrambler.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08360260779814630069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-53528585939896955872009-12-20T06:09:00.137+11:002009-12-20T06:09:00.137+11:00People arguing what permadeath takes from the game...People arguing what permadeath takes from the game don't consider what it gives. Namely MUCH stronger game experience i.e.<br />You played for 10 hrs hoarded best stuff you ever seen in a game (that might still be shit compared to best items, since you never got really far :D) and you face a situation where you see that you are in for some serious action, man this gives you feelings NO game with saves can give you that feeling. And the feeling when/if you overcome troubles, well its pure awesomeness . People are inpatient, try to escape with games from hardships from reality. But reality is that you can't have thrill and excitement without any danger, and saves remove all of this goodness. I understand that in story games a lot is different and saves are appropriate there. But ir game uses procedurally generated content permadeth greatly enhances experience for the player, if he can overcome some frustration at start. Hard games are NOT bad games (like old console games, i.e. megaman and lots of others, they don't make games that hard anymore, and easy games give lousy experience, unless great story is told).morphleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13022015040467511956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-46433725616161775332009-11-29T05:02:09.221+11:002009-11-29T05:02:09.221+11:00If you're going to reset the game to a previou...If you're going to reset the game to a previous state so you can succeed where you failed why not just turn off failure altogether? Hitpoints don't mean anything if you can't die.Shokuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12107696954466417617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-8450702824237093802009-07-27T03:36:42.690+10:002009-07-27T03:36:42.690+10:00This article bothered me when I first read it, but...This article bothered me when I first read it, but I couldn't figure it out right then. So, I'm jumping in a little late.<br /><br />What I later realized what it treats the situation as a black and white choice between permadeath and saves. I feel that online games have found a happy compromise with death penalties, which both encourage boldness and encourage caution.Christer Nyfälthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13823912308919323516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-75232520835929219022009-07-21T12:01:47.211+10:002009-07-21T12:01:47.211+10:00zorful:
>Basically my whole argument boils dow...zorful:<br /><br />>Basically my whole argument boils down to this: permadeath is not a feature in the case of something like Angband, it's a bad design decision.<br /><br />Which is what I disagree with. I think we've both made our case as strongly as we're able to, so I think we'll just have to agree we have different opinions on the matter...Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-8358277933585814962009-07-19T17:21:12.685+10:002009-07-19T17:21:12.685+10:00> No it isn't. Given that permadeath meanin...> No it isn't. Given that permadeath meaningfully changes the game, there are some games for which you should never offer the ability to quick save. e.g. If you could quick save a hand of poker and go back to any previous position, you radically change the game - to the point where it is not worth playing. Given that, it makes sense to design some games to include compulsory permadeath. Remember, I'm not advocating every game play this way.<br /><br />There are many options besides quicksave that will make the game more manageable for less patient (or more busy with RL) player. Difficulty levels with varying saving options can be included in any game (I can't think of anything that will detriment from it). <br /><br />Poker is not a good example because you don't need quicksave there - you can quit after any given round and it rarely prolongs more than half an hour. The game is already split into manageable chunks of player time by design.<br /><br />For example, Hitman make less saves per level available the more harder you set the difficulty.<br /><br />Basically my whole argument boils down to this: permadeath is not a feature in the case of something like Angband, it's a bad design decision. I offered some examples how this can be corrected in the case of any given YARL, that's all.zorfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12191654043716722354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-23028004921460926542009-07-19T13:18:23.888+10:002009-07-19T13:18:23.888+10:00zorful: "I meant that permadeath debate is ab...zorful: "I meant that permadeath debate is about choice. Some people okay with it, some aren't. So why not give them a choice at start of the game?"<br /><br />No it isn't. Given that permadeath meaningfully changes the game, there are some games for which you should never offer the ability to quick save. e.g. If you could quick save a hand of poker and go back to any previous position, you radically change the game - to the point where it is not worth playing. Given that, it makes sense to design some games to include compulsory permadeath. Remember, I'm not advocating every game play this way.<br /><br />With regards to using quick save to play through the same section of the game multiple different ways, I'm suggesting that unless the game itself is designed to be played from start to end multiple different ways, there's little benefit in using quick save this way. I'm not convinced on this one however - Far Cry 2 supports playing each mission significantly differently, even with the same starting parameters.Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-11666350165624716402009-07-19T06:18:53.892+10:002009-07-19T06:18:53.892+10:00> zorful: Just because Permadeath can be a choi...> zorful: Just because Permadeath can be a choice, doesn't make it about choice.<br /><br />I meant that permadeath debate is about choice. Some people okay with it, some aren't. So why not give them a choice at start of the game?<br /><br />> 'Quicksave / When multiple solutions are available' example you give - in this instance, isn't that just the same as playing through the whole game multiple times, but doing so different ways. I will agree some games give you less support to do this by not having dynamic elements, but that's a problem with the rest of the game, not an advantage of quick save.<br /><br />Could you explain that a bit more please, I haven't quite got it.<br /><br /><br />> You need to be able to stop playing at any point to e.g. answer the door. Of course, lots of games with save points won't even let you do that.<br /><br />That's what pause is for. And that's not even a problem in turn-based games like roguelikes.<br /><br />> Regards breaking the dungeon up into multiple chunks - many roguelikes do that, including Unangband. But again, doing that is orthoganol to permadeath. There are about 10 dungeons accessible to a starting player in Unangband - nothing prevents you attempting a different dungeon each time you play.<br /><br />Nope, it's not orthogonal. I suggested doing this to make permadeath less intimidating. Having X dungeons without changes to dying is orthogonal sure, but having X dungeons with (for example) dying resetting player to the start of current dungeon is a compromise between current permadeath and quicksave.zorfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12191654043716722354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-530762113417394322009-07-18T08:28:06.464+10:002009-07-18T08:28:06.464+10:00zorful: Just because Permadeath can be a choice, d...zorful: Just because Permadeath can be a choice, doesn't make it about choice. (I also disagree that emergent game play is about choices - the combinatorial explosion I talk about is more about coming up with the best choice using the limited equipment you are carrying. If it was just about choice, you'd never use up anything). I'll argue this in more detail in another blog post.<br /><br />'Quicksave / When multiple solutions are available' example you give - in this instance, isn't that just the same as playing through the whole game multiple times, but doing so different ways. I will agree some games give you less support to do this by not having dynamic elements, but that's a problem with the rest of the game, not an advantage of quick save.<br /><br />'It would be more appropriate to just remove saves at all. That way nobody cheats and permadeath just hits you in the face every time you play.' I disagree. You need to be able to stop playing at any point to e.g. answer the door. Of course, lots of games with save points won't even let you do that.<br /><br />Regards breaking the dungeon up into multiple chunks - many roguelikes do that, including Unangband. But again, doing that is orthoganol to permadeath. There are about 10 dungeons accessible to a starting player in Unangband - nothing prevents you attempting a different dungeon each time you play.Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-27007977876187090712009-07-17T20:58:30.732+10:002009-07-17T20:58:30.732+10:00Great post about roguelikes. But you miss a few po...Great post about roguelikes. But you miss a few points. First as DarthCthulhu mentioned, it's a matter of Choice primarily. If you give the player more choices (that's what emergent gameplay boils down to) why not give him also the choice of save vs permadeath?<br /><br />Quicksave also has good uses. Not everybody uses it to just push through the particularly hard problem. When multiple solutions are available I usually want to watch all of them just because it's interesting. Without quicksave I'd be stuck in having to restart a game just to see this particular problem solved in a different way.<br /><br /><br />The biggest problem IMO with roguelikes permadeath is that it just makes you restart from scratch. It was an overall bad design decision making the game (I'm talking about Angband) with 99th continuous levels of gameplay and declaring most of the savestate functionality cheating. <br />It would be more appropriate to just remove saves at all. That way nobody cheats and permadeath just hits you in the face every time you play.<br /><br />The whole problem comes from the notion that the whole game is one big dungeon. The lengthier the chunk of gameplay action is the more harder it takes to get to the end. And the more harder it is the less people will do it failing the exam so to speak. Many old console platformers suffer from the same exact design issue - player is supposed to play the whole game in one setting. That was ok back then but it certainly is not nowadays with plenty of more forgiving games available - people will simply move on to the next game on their list after they see the first death screen.<br /><br />There's plenty of user-friendly solutions ready but nobody uses them. Cut the whole into manageable chunks - different dungeons and allow only auto-save in town and it becomes much less frustrating to die. Diablo got that bit damn right. Want to make game harder? Don't allow WORs. That way either you finish the current dungeon or have to start over the next time. But not from scratch. And that option should definitely be switchable at start.zorfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12191654043716722354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-21935475331695966232009-07-17T12:29:28.108+10:002009-07-17T12:29:28.108+10:00PS: There's a difference, as well, between sav...PS: There's a difference, as well, between saving the current state of the game, and allowing you to move back to any partially completed game state. I'd argue a game should allow you to stop playing at any point - that's certainly not what I'm defending.<br /><br />Plenty of games won't even let you do that...Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-51962575351211613682009-07-17T12:27:44.177+10:002009-07-17T12:27:44.177+10:00DarkCthulhu: Hey. Relax. I'm explaining why it...DarkCthulhu: Hey. Relax. I'm explaining why it might be a good think to restart from the beginning every game, and how to design a game to support this mechanic. I'm not suggesting every game would benefit from having the ability to save removed - most would turn out to be remarkably badly designed for this. I would argue that most games need save points because they rely on you not developing any skills while playing.<br /><br />Someone has already designed a game which makes save scumming easy: http://www.zincland.com/7drl/savescummer/ - it's a rogulike as well.<br /><br />Then there's the emulators which allow you to step through a game a single tick at a time...Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-67805075147110437592009-07-17T05:56:50.865+10:002009-07-17T05:56:50.865+10:00I'm still not convinced that Permadeath is a d...I'm still not convinced that Permadeath is a desirable gameplay mechanic. One of the games you present as having it, Spelunky, in fact does not: you can (admittedly optionally) give money to the tunnel man in order to save your progress.<br /><br />Then there is the fact that you can STILL HAVE Permadeath while also saving the progress. It's just up to the player to restart the game when they die. There is absolutely no reason to enforce that programmatically (you do, after all, have to save progress some way in most Roguelikes, it's just that there is usually only one rather than multiple save files). True, it is possible to save-scumm, but this is a rather irritating and overly-complicated thing. By contrast, it's usually extremely easy to restart a game from the beginning, regardless of how saves are handled.<br /><br />Permadeath is like those god-awful save points that are popular in console games. Terrible game mechanics that are used to patch up flaws in the gameplay. If the game is not challenging or fun without save points or permadeath, then YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.<br /><br />Saving is an OOC means for the Player, and should NOT be subject to the design whims of the creator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09763951717629359056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-26372039594131765842009-07-15T12:47:02.755+10:002009-07-15T12:47:02.755+10:00humpolec: Chess vs Go - its just a matter of prefe...humpolec: Chess vs Go - its just a matter of preference. I'll admit that I just hacked the ending on - and still haven't figured out a satisfactory conclusion. When I do, I'll be putting this up on GSW.<br /><br />CPL: In a procedural game, the nouns are not predictably acquired. Or even understood (think identification). And ideally the number of interactions should ideally exceed the ability to document those interactions. I don't think roguelikes have necessarily got there yet, as I mentioned.Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-50244178283964751392009-07-15T10:03:49.810+10:002009-07-15T10:03:49.810+10:00I'm not convinced that emergent gameplay via n...I'm not convinced that emergent gameplay via noun-verb combinations is a good thing. To the extent that the nouns are predictably acquirable (e.g. corpses, shop items) and the noun-verb interactions are fixed, all that's 'emerging' is player knowledge, which can be (and in most cases <i>is</i>) short-circuited via an appropriate FAQ. Either that or (especially with permadeath) you end up asking the player to 'waste' characters on building up knowledge for the main character (i.e. the one they actually care about) to use.<br /><br />Personally, the emergent gameplay that I find most rewarding is found in CCGs, where the player is given a small collection of random synergistic abilities, and then decides how to use them for the most benefit over the course of several turns.CPLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18317841046599821996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-83890430733504615682009-07-15T05:43:24.468+10:002009-07-15T05:43:24.468+10:00Could you elaborate on the Chess vs Go analogy? I ...Could you elaborate on the Chess vs Go analogy? I believe there's an element of "fight or flight" and complex risk analysis in both games...humpolechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05268630131048166288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-53513081927001661012009-07-14T22:24:31.645+10:002009-07-14T22:24:31.645+10:00This is one of the best argued-posts I've ever...This is one of the best argued-posts I've ever seen for permadeath!Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160547787461019796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-74193793039765656592009-07-12T14:38:16.575+10:002009-07-12T14:38:16.575+10:00Nice post Andrew. I read a couple roguelike blogs....Nice post Andrew. I read a couple roguelike blogs. However I have not seen anything about permanent death except for yours. I usually don't comment as I read your posts in my Google reader. Keep up the good work.Legend of Angbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18049943271218398553noreply@blogger.com