tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post7675179322946980928..comments2024-03-08T19:47:41.485+11:00Comments on Ascii Dreams: The Canon of Procedural GamesAndrew Doullhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-22071446368852181152009-10-23T08:12:36.830+11:002009-10-23T08:12:36.830+11:00Interesting question. Procedural Content Generati...Interesting question. Procedural Content Generation is about content not behavior or experience. AI is about experience or behavior. Content adds to experience but experience does not normally contribute to content (unless it is a parameter into the grammar. different topic). It’s a nit. Who really cares? It’s a topic that tweaks the same brain cells as the other procedural topics. Personally while I find AI interesting, it is in my mind a separate topic complete with its own forums and web sites. AI and behavior is by definition procedural based on premise that it uses grammars, decision trees, fuzzy logic, or Bayesian rules for current generations of implementation.<br /><br />Didn't mean to hone in on your topic. gives me something to ponder the rest of the afternoon.<br /><br />Hughrabidcathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03462193923770050102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-59575016724882795042009-10-20T07:29:04.145+11:002009-10-20T07:29:04.145+11:00Well, I'd say that Sin Episode 1 (because it j...Well, I'd say that Sin Episode 1 (because it just seems silly to call it Sin Episodes when there's just the one)does count as an example of procedurally determined adaptive difficulty.<br /><br />However, it's probably not the most notable example. Left4Dead, which was done by some of the same team, takes a few of the ideas first seen in Sin Episode 1 and takes them to a whole new level as well as adding on a ton more. Like how Mario Bros. is a platform game but Super Mario Bros. is a much better example of a platform game by the same folks.The Mad Tinkererhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17795502783343673424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-71638408260453418302009-10-19T09:34:02.595+11:002009-10-19T09:34:02.595+11:00I'd argue it still applies, it's just a qu...I'd argue it still applies, it's just a question of violating the consistency principle instead of the completeness principal. If you used each phrase in language completely consistently I suspect you would have a formal language (and indeed, formal systems are just a subset of general language used consistently).<br /><br />But that's all tangential. Your latest definition was what started me towards posting a comment, but wouldn't that rule out creature generation in Spore? If the input is human action instead of random numbers you can still get emergent elements. I think a satisfactory definition is going to need to take into account 1)combinatorial interactions (so random items are of higher order than random names), 2)scope (if entire levels are generated based on user skill that's more PCG then just enemy health), 3)predictability (an expert in a game with adaptive difficulty could know the damage/health of an enemy based on a players performance so far, but couldn't predict a map in rouge...but at the same time being able to predict subelements (e.g. vaults) is more PCG then just random noise).<br /><br />But it seems to me that any rules I can come up with have exceptionsPaulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11679234404220837033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-33228670393233347372009-10-18T10:18:49.091+11:002009-10-18T10:18:49.091+11:00Paul: For my view on how definitions work, see htt...Paul: For my view on how definitions work, see http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2008/03/prototype-theory.html<br /><br />While it's nice try to trot out the incompleteness theorem once in a while, it doesn't apply to systems which aren't formal - like human language.<br /><br />Further thinking about this makes me wonder if adaptive difficulty is not procedural because it relies on input which doesn't vary randomly: the player's skill.Andrew Doullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11099404183952971291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-76429548273372420652009-10-18T09:03:16.266+11:002009-10-18T09:03:16.266+11:00I'd say a rough version of the incompleteness ...I'd say a rough version of the incompleteness theorem applies: No genre definition can be both complete and consistent. The Wikipedia article on procedural generation mentions Doom 3 arguably counts because the lightmaps aren't precomputed. However you chose to define PCG, something is going to feel misclassified.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11679234404220837033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2208890564265615027.post-73210939442081396262009-10-17T15:10:29.433+11:002009-10-17T15:10:29.433+11:00"However simpler RPG style mechanisms can als..."However simpler RPG style mechanisms can also be seen as adaptive difficulty techniques."<br /><br />Since these can be summarized as 'the player levels up but the rest of the game *doesn't* change', I'm not sure they can be described as procedural difficulty adjustment though. If anything quite the opposite- is there an unprocedural* category available out the other side of merely not procedural?<br /><br />--<br /><br />* ie: where the lack of changing content is a critical element rather than a mere absence. Another example might be the old 2d memorize-the-attack-patterns shoot-em-upskaypyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973752455143516584noreply@blogger.com